Timeline for How do Islam followers justify religion over logic?
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| Aug 12, 2020 at 12:54 | answer | added | Abu Ammar Ahmad | timeline score: 0 | |
| Jul 2, 2020 at 0:02 | history | bumped | CommunityBot | This question has answers that may be good or bad; the system has marked it active so that they can be reviewed. | |
| Jun 1, 2020 at 23:05 | answer | added | Mozibur Ullah | timeline score: 0 | |
| Jun 1, 2020 at 14:02 | history | bumped | CommunityBot | This question has answers that may be good or bad; the system has marked it active so that they can be reviewed. | |
| May 2, 2020 at 13:11 | answer | added | ninthamigo | timeline score: 1 | |
| May 2, 2020 at 11:05 | history | bumped | CommunityBot | This question has answers that may be good or bad; the system has marked it active so that they can be reviewed. | |
| Dec 30, 2019 at 3:06 | answer | added | 0tyranny0poverty | timeline score: -1 | |
| Jun 19, 2017 at 22:44 | review | Close votes | |||
| Jun 27, 2017 at 3:01 | |||||
| Feb 16, 2017 at 22:12 | answer | added | Thaqalain | timeline score: 0 | |
| Feb 16, 2017 at 18:58 | history | bumped | CommunityBot | This question has answers that may be good or bad; the system has marked it active so that they can be reviewed. | |
| Jan 30, 2017 at 6:39 | comment | added | infatuated | I created a room to continue our discussion in case you're interested: chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/52713/technology-and-human-destiny | |
| Jan 28, 2017 at 21:25 | comment | added | user-1289389812839 | @infatuated That's the most interesting part. I will argue that there will in a decade or two be software which can understand human emotions, because of the exponential growth in hardware development during the last few decades. Unless of course, we really are "supernaturally spiritual" (I don't think "spiritual" necessarily implies "supernatural" or religion, I consider myself spiritual.) beings with some kind of divine force intervening with our minds, making them ineffable to science. We can make sure the technology won't backfire if we open-source it in a special way. Too off-topic, chat. | |
| Jan 27, 2017 at 3:33 | comment | added | infatuated | @t0k3, What would you do with human tendencies such as greed, desire for dominance, etc? How do you ascertain that technology will not even backfire? You must have heard of Edward Snowden's revelations. I don't think technology can remedy shortcomings of our understanding our human nature. If we are spiritual beings, and there are transcendental truths governing nature, I don't think we can reform our societies by staying in our present state of disregard for the sacred. | |
| Jan 26, 2017 at 22:33 | comment | added | user-1289389812839 | @infatuated It is indeed a consequence of human nature. I don't agree that it cannot be changed or that there is not a more efficient method of cooperating which would allow for the most knowledgeable to work together and which would disregard rhetoric's in favor of actual knowledge. Hardware-/software-development can most definitely help us bypass a lot of these problems. Especially in a couple of years from now. | |
| Jan 25, 2017 at 12:23 | comment | added | infatuated | @t0k3, Well, as a Shia esoteric Muslim and a proponent of the Traditionalist school, I don't think there are any formal solutions to fundamental problems of humanity in general. The formal political structures are just a reflection of the conditions of human thinking and culture. But on the structural level alone I don't think decentralized political systems are possible at all for social hierarchy is just a natural consequence of the hierarchical nature of man itself. So the problem has to be sought in more qualitative aspects of life. | |
| Jan 24, 2017 at 15:51 | comment | added | user-1289389812839 | Yes infatuated. Right now I really resonate with you, because you are yourself implying the very argument that makes Minarchism or something like it the only solution in my opinion. A State will always be abusive, because people abuse power. The logical thing to do in my opinion is to reduce the influence the state has overall, to something as reductionist as Minarchism. Then and only then we can be more or less guaranteed personal freedom and then and only then the most logical and fair solution for everyone can exist. | |
| Jan 24, 2017 at 15:24 | comment | added | infatuated | Yes, and that sounds like a very common perception. Although I know of individual very special cases to the contrary. But besides, people always find something to abuse. If it is not religion, it is then "democracy", "free-trade", "homeland security", "fight against terrorism" etc! ;) And I guess you guess what I'm talking about! | |
| Jan 24, 2017 at 13:42 | comment | added | user-1289389812839 | You have to believe me when I say that I can look beyond what the reporters say. I don't have any values stemming from religion, nor do I support or take in political agendas in journalism. Please don't assume that I cannot look past what is obviously an attempt at making someone else look bad. I think capitalism is obsolete, I believe in minarchism, so there's no siding with western media from my part which you seem to be implying. The fact that people can mask their political agenda with religion is to me reason enough not to let any religion into the government buildings. People will abuse. | |
| Jan 24, 2017 at 13:24 | comment | added | infatuated | I agree with your general point. However I object to the common misconception that many so-called Islamic countries are really putting Islam above everything else. Often times the harsh policies are motivated by political interests of the ruling class but masked under religious pretensions, especially when these countries fail to manifest anything that can be a manifestation of Islam's notion of mercy and compassion, a notion that is manifestly reminded at the opening of each chapter of Quran. And there's also the question of biased coverage of many Islamic countries in the West and so on... | |
| Jan 24, 2017 at 13:07 | comment | added | user-1289389812839 | ...not logical to force such rules based on anything but actual unquestionable irrefutable proof (not just for one group of people with whatever "confirming and foolproof spiritual beliefs", then it is not irrefutable) of it's validity over everything else, scientifically. You can't just ignore actual science and say that Islam stands above it, and say that you follow logic. | |
| Jan 24, 2017 at 13:05 | comment | added | user-1289389812839 | I see what you mean. However, since Islam is so open for interpretation and there is actually more philosophy than blatant rules in the Quran, it is not logical to say that "This philosophy is what should forcibly govern our society" [Saudi-Arabia, Dubai etc.], just because the individuals who rule the country feel that way because of experience, intuition, "spiritual vision, religious experience". There is simply no way for anyone of these people to know whether they have simply been more or less hypnotized into believing these things and hence not logical to force such rules.. | |
| Jan 23, 2017 at 3:48 | comment | added | infatuated | @You didn't yet get the point. Logic is all about following the correct rules for formal consistency of the arguments. It says nothing about the validity of the content of the arguments, that is, the premises, and says nothing on its own about, say, the validity of the particular epistemological approach one may adhere to which indicates which sources of knowledge you choose as valid: sense experience, rational intuition, spiritual vision, religious experience? Logic says nothing about any of these questions, beyond setting some basic rules of inference. | |
| Jan 22, 2017 at 22:40 | comment | added | user-1289389812839 | @infatuated logic is deterministic in it's nature, yes. Otherwise it is simply not logic. My ideas however, are not at all involved with Logical Positivism, which you seem to be implying. So you are saying that the message is more important than whether or not logic was used in the arguments laid out, because it is "divine"? Glad we could establish that. | |
| Jan 22, 2017 at 22:39 | comment | added | user-1289389812839 | @Kilise As I explained in the comments and the edits earlier I'm speaking about every Muslim whom accepts violence in the name of religion for any reason whatsoever except for in direct self-defense from physical harm. | |
| Jan 22, 2017 at 11:22 | comment | added | infatuated | You may also have a look these comments to further broaden your perspective: islam.stackexchange.com/questions/37126/… | |
| Jan 22, 2017 at 11:20 | comment | added | infatuated | @t0k3 Your notion and use of "logic" lends much semblance to the central claim of the obsolete, refuted ideology of Logical Positivism which nonetheless still exerts powerful influence over the mainstream and popular scientific mindset (that by its nature always lags behind the philosophical discourse). Truth of doctrines are more dependent on their foundational axioms about the nature of man and the world, than whether or not they use logic in their arguments. Therefore you will find many "irrational" doctrines using logical reasoning. | |
| Jan 22, 2017 at 10:45 | comment | added | Kilise | When you write muslims, are you referring to a special group of muslims or do you mean all? Because I might just misunderstand, but I can't see your point on: "If no muslim can explain a logiclal reason behind that..." Again, how many Muslim immigrants have you been speaking to in Sweden? | |
| Jan 22, 2017 at 10:36 | comment | added | user-1289389812839 | @Kilise Sure, but they seemingly abandon logic when they make laws stemming from their understanding of the Quran. If no Muslim can explain a logical reason behind that we just have to assume that there are dark spots in implementations of Islam which have abandoned Logic. Sad but seemingly true. | |
| Jan 22, 2017 at 1:59 | comment | added | Kilise | @t0k3 The point is, even the Muslims who interpret the texts in a more extreme way, are SOMEHOW basing their interpretation on logic, but one could of course argue that it is limited and not "the most correct way". Of course that doesn't mean I am agreeing with them at all. They are completely wrong in my understanding. Anyway, how many muslim immigrants have you been speaking to in Sweden? Also, I don't think you will find an answer here from a muslim with these opinions. | |
| Jan 21, 2017 at 22:27 | comment | added | user-1289389812839 | @Kilise It is possible to derive different meanings out of one sentence, true. However, the definition of the word logical is that which you can back with something irrefutable and factual. If something can be interpreted in many different ways, it is not logical for any one person except for the writer to say that it should be interpreted in a certain way and call that "logical". That is nothing but subjective opinion. Not fact or "the word of the creator". Ergo not logical to expect others to obey. Which means that there should be no Islamic laws, logically. | |
| Jan 21, 2017 at 21:56 | comment | added | Kilise | I think that what @Medi1Saif wants to express is that logic doesn't mean right or wrong. In logic it is possible to derive different of meanings in a certain context (of text or situation). But LOGICALLY it doesn't mean that all these derived meanings are TRUE. If you have studied logic you know this. I think this is what medi1saif wanted to point out. THIS means that if a person concludes that the Quran says to kill someone, that MIGHT have been a logically valid theory BUT it doesn't mean it is a TRUE theory and it doesn't mean it is the MOST logic theory either. This is objective knowledge. | |
| Jan 20, 2017 at 13:32 | comment | added | user-1289389812839 | And no I won't take it as a truth about Islam. I will take it as a truth about what Islam can do to certain peoples and how it can twist their minds into thinking that violence in the name of religion is even remotely okay, ever. Same goes for every other religion/sect/cult (these three are really the same, only the scale differs) as well. | |
| Jan 20, 2017 at 13:22 | comment | added | user-1289389812839 | @Envayo Ofc I haven't read the whole Quran and I never will. What you're saying implies anyone needs to have read every religion's holy scriptures to have an idea about which is "the truth" and the word of "the creator". Also you are blatantly stating what I would think about something, as if you know me? You should read up on subjectivity vs. objectivity. Frankly you seem very arrogant in your opinions. | |
| Jan 19, 2017 at 2:55 | comment | added | user-1289389812839 | Thank you. While not shedding more light on the relationship between Islam and Logic, it was interesting to read about how "non-violent" people can still find reasons to fight. | |
| Jan 18, 2017 at 8:51 | comment | added | Medi1Saif♦ | If you still have not read my answer here maybe this is somewhat helpful islam.stackexchange.com/questions/28682/… it may not cover your questions, but it is related to some extent. | |
| Jan 17, 2017 at 18:34 | history | edited | user-1289389812839 | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Jan 13, 2017 at 16:11 | answer | added | Muslimah | timeline score: 1 | |
| Jan 13, 2017 at 7:20 | comment | added | infatuated | How does Islam and logic relate to? It's a too general question but the fact that among various Islamic sects, there are many who require their seminarians to study logic and philosophy, and the fact that Islamic civilization during its Golden Age has introduced many bright philosophers and scientists to the world may help you broaden your perspective about the question. | |
| Jan 13, 2017 at 6:56 | history | edited | user-1289389812839 | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Jan 12, 2017 at 16:40 | comment | added | user-1289389812839 | Right, I see what you mean. I obviously had some facts wrong here. However I think that the difference is irrelevant to logic, since following the word and imposing it upon others is exactly as illogical no matter if it comes from Allah, Muhammad or Winnie the Pooh. You cannot confirm beyond doubt that this is true and what you heard is true. You believe you are following the word of Allah but there's no way to confirm that you are. Hence it is not logical to force others to do the same, in any situation. Be it your child or me, nobody should be forced into religion or be tortured otherwise. | |
| Jan 11, 2017 at 0:22 | history | edited | user-1289389812839 | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Jan 11, 2017 at 0:04 | review | Close votes | |||
| Jan 28, 2017 at 3:10 | |||||
| Jan 9, 2017 at 19:37 | history | edited | user-1289389812839 | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Jan 9, 2017 at 19:30 | comment | added | user-1289389812839 | Let us continue this discussion in chat. | |
| Jan 9, 2017 at 19:13 | history | edited | user-1289389812839 | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Jan 9, 2017 at 18:35 | comment | added | user-1289389812839 | Agreed. What I'm saying is that it is illogical to follow rules because of an omnipotent being who might reward you for it over following said rules because one wants the best for society as a whole. It's easier to get people not to question rules when there's "Allah" backing them. Rules are important, it's just the way that most rules are made and laid out today profit capitalism and the top 1% way more than the people affected the most by it. Also note: a Rule is not the same as Prohibition | |
| Jan 9, 2017 at 18:22 | comment | added | user-1289389812839 | I follow traffic rules. I don't kill, steal or aggravate people. Well maybe aggravate people but that's a byproduct of expressing my opinion. There will always be people who are aggravated by that when they don't agree, which is their problem and theirs alone. However, Killing, stealing are not logical things to do, because I want society to thrive. I want to live in a society where everybody truly cooperate, where there are no copyright rules, where nobody is being forced to make money for someone else, where I can ingest anything I want to. Who are you to tell me this is a bad way of life? | |
| Jan 9, 2017 at 18:11 | comment | added | user-1289389812839 | If you know what the word logic means you also know that you must denounce logic if you follow something which you are not able to guarantee and confirm is truth/the way life is supposed to be lived, decided by an omnipotent being which is also the creator of the universe. | |
| Jan 9, 2017 at 18:09 | comment | added | user-1289389812839 | What you are saying is highly subjective and does not apply to me nor most people I know. I thrive when I have the freedom to do what I want, when I can make my own rules. I don't "need rules" as you say to be happy and I believe what you're saying is an illogical social construct put upon you, transmitted hierarchically, to control a mass of people. | |
| Jan 9, 2017 at 18:03 | comment | added | user-1289389812839 | My interpretation of logic? Look at the definition of the word "Logic". It's about being able to agree upon a general truth. When it comes to Islam or many other religions, you abandon being able to confirm truth and hence religion does not appear logical. I'm asking you to explain what logic I am missing which guarantees that Islam is The truth, or simply to tell me religion stands over logic in this instance as a way of life altogether to many Muslims. | |
| Jan 9, 2017 at 17:54 | comment | added | user-1289389812839 | Are you saying violence and/or enslavement in the name of Islam is logical and generally condoned? | |
| Jan 9, 2017 at 17:45 | comment | added | user-1289389812839 | Would it then not be accurate to say that Muslim scholars whom interpret the Quran in a way which represents violence and/or enslavement of non-believers and/or non-obeyers, have abandoned logic? | |
| Jan 9, 2017 at 17:42 | history | edited | user-1289389812839 | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Jan 9, 2017 at 12:28 | comment | added | Medi1Saif♦ | As logic is part of the training of Muslim scholars islamic religion is indeed based on logic. | |
| Jan 9, 2017 at 2:42 | history | asked | user-1289389812839 | CC BY-SA 3.0 |